Cessation of CG 66 Scheme

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Cessation of CG 66 Scheme

Gerald Turner 2924
I recently learned that the CG 66 is to end this month to be replaced by something called Safetrx an app provided by the RYA, not that I us d the  old scheme much anyway.

But I do question the  sense of this, not everyone has a Smartphone or have the smarts to operate one, then there is the thing about maintaining a connection  and data usesage, I am not in the habit of taking my mobile to sea, or do I pay for a lot of data.

Has anyone have views on this?
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Re: Cessation of CG 66 Scheme

Stephen Davies 3471
I do take my smart phone to sea, and I am often inclined to keep it switched on, (which in the mirror, in any weather or difficult passage, is a liability, calls are distracting).

I carry a spare battery, but the combined battery life is not more than 2 1/2 days even if I have managed to charge both fully.

I would sooner have the smart phone switched off in my dry pack, for occasional use ashore, and carry a conventional mobile.

To me the app is, although a theoretical safeguard, in reality just another distraction.

If you carry a smart phone and someone knows what you're up to, you can be tracked without the app.

I have the app loaded on my phone but have not yet used it.

Stephen.
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Re: Cessation of CG 66 Scheme

Alastair Law 2624
In reply to this post by Gerald Turner 2924
My understanding of the Safetrx system is that you record the stuff
you had on the CG66 system to a central database which the Coastguard
can get access to (so the same as the CG66 really). Then you can, if
you wish, use the app to log your trip and send this information back
to the servers, so the Coastguard can get at it if necessary. The app
has other functions which you may, or may not, think are useful.

So, a sort of CG66 plus.

Personally, unless you have an external power supply for your phone,
I think the app itself is fairly useless as the gps will run the
battery down in a few hours, even if you are not bothered by the data
charges.

One of the possible functions on the app is to send out a safety
warning if you don't report in at your destination. I can see this
being a problem in many of the destinations I sail to where mobile
(and vhf) coverage is non existent. Ok for a yacht sailing from
marina to marina but I don't think I will be using that on my craft.
 

On 13 Feb 2019 at 18:40, Gerald Turner 2924 [via DCA F wrote:

>
>
> I recently learned that the CG 66 is to end this month to be replaced
> by something called Safetrx an app provided by the RYA, not that I us
> d the old scheme much anyway.
>
> But I do question the  sense of this, not everyone has a Smartphone or
> have the smarts to operate one, then there is the thing about
> maintaining a connection  and data usesage, I am not in the habit of
> taking my mobile to sea, or do I pay for a lot of data.
>
> Has anyone have views on this?
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> discussion below:
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> cruising, email [hidden email] To unsubscribe from
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--
Sail when you can, row when you must, motor only
when you have to be at work in the morning.

Alastair Law
Yeovil, England.
<http://www.little.jim.freeuk.com>


--
Sail when you can, row when you must, motor only
when you have to be at work in the morning.

Alastair Law
Yeovil, England.
<http://www.little.jim.freeuk.com>
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Re: Cessation of CG 66 Scheme

Gerald Turner 2924
The fact that many of destinations,  that us Dinghy cruising sailors visit ,might not have a data connection is my main problem, on the East Coast might not be so bad, but I believe the West coast and many places in the SW might not be so blessed .
Setting of a false alarm is costly, but as the rescue services like to say they sooner respond to a bogus call,  rather than pick up pieces after a tragedy.
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Re: Cessation of CG 66 Scheme

Stephen Davies 3471
I am lucky to have a wife who worries about me. I would, if I get around to it, keep a smart phone switched on and with GPS enabled, but data switched off, in a tupperware box secured to deck and in view of as many satellites as possible. With out the need for any app, if my wife raises the alarm the coast guard can track this phone. The phone will not come out of its plastic cucoon, and with the data switched off, I hope the battery might last a day. I will carry another, old fashioned brick phone for calling the wife to tell her not to worry. I have to do this anyway, and she demands to know where I am going so I have to tell her. I believe she is more reliable than an app.
The GPS phone idea is my best practice however reality is likely to get in the way!
S
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Re: Cessation of CG 66 Scheme

Roger Barnes 936
I find that a smartphone with GPS enabled lasts only a few hours. GPS is very hungry on electricity.

On 16 Feb 2019, at 21:54, Stephen Davies 3471 [via DCA Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

I am lucky to have a wife who worries about me. I would, if I get around to it, keep a smart phone switched on and with GPS enabled, but data switched off, in a tupperware box secured to deck and in view of as many satellites as possible. With out the need for any app, if my wife raises the alarm the coast guard can track this phone. The phone will not come out of its plastic cucoon, and with the data switched off, I hope the battery might last a day. I will carry another, old fashioned brick phone for calling the wife to tell her not to worry. I have to do this anyway, and she demands to know where I am going so I have to tell her. I believe she is more reliable than an app.
The GPS phone idea is my best practice however reality is likely to get in the way!
S


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Re: Cessation of CG 66 Scheme

Alastair Law 2624
In reply to this post by Stephen Davies 3471
It is the gps that eats the battery. My phone lasts a couple of days
with data on and gps off. Switch on the gps and it lasts about 2
hours.

How would the coastguard track your phone if the data is switched
off? They might be able to locate which tower your phone is linked
to, but that is hardly an accurate location,

If you are putting the phone in a tupperware box (tupperware are
rarely watertight, Lock & Lock are far more reliable) then why not
put a battery in there with it?


On 16 Feb 2019 at 15:54, Stephen Davies 3471 [via DCA Forum] wrote:

>
>
> I am lucky to have a wife who worries about me. I would, if I get
> around to it, keep a smart phone switched on and with GPS enabled, but
> data switched off, in a tupperware box secured to deck and in view of
> as many satellites as possible. With out the need for any app, if my
> wife raises the alarm the coast guard can track this phone. The phone
> will not come out of its plastic cucoon, and with the data switched
> off, I hope the battery might last a day. I will carry another, old
> fashioned brick phone for calling the wife to tell her not to worry. I
> have to do this anyway, and she demands to know where I am going so I
> have to tell her. I believe she is more reliable than an app. The GPS
> phone idea is my best practice however reality is likely to get in the
> way! S
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the
> discussion below:
> http://forum.dinghycruising.org.uk/Cessation-of-CG-66-Scheme-tp1581p15
> 92.html To start a new topic under Flotsam & Jetsam: Everything else
> dinghy cruising, email [hidden email] To unsubscribe
> from DCA Forum, visit
> http://forum.dinghycruising.org.uk/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=unsu
> bscribe_by_code&node=1&code=UGFyYWRveEBhczZqZy5mcmVldWsuY29tfDF8MTk3Mz
> Q5ODc5MQ==

--
Sail when you can, row when you must, motor only
when you have to be at work in the morning.

Alastair Law
Yeovil, England.
<http://www.little.jim.freeuk.com>


--
Sail when you can, row when you must, motor only
when you have to be at work in the morning.

Alastair Law
Yeovil, England.
<http://www.little.jim.freeuk.com>
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Re: Cessation of CG 66 Scheme

Stephen Davies 3471
In reply to this post by Roger Barnes 936
You are right, if the data is switched on, but without the data, it should last a day.
Stephen.


On Sun, 17 Feb 2019 at 1:17 pm, Roger Barnes 936 [via DCA Forum]
I find that a smartphone with GPS enabled lasts only a few hours. GPS is very hungry on electricity.

On 16 Feb 2019, at 21:54, Stephen Davies 3471 [via DCA Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

I am lucky to have a wife who worries about me. I would, if I get around to it, keep a smart phone switched on and with GPS enabled, but data switched off, in a tupperware box secured to deck and in view of as many satellites as possible. With out the need for any app, if my wife raises the alarm the coast guard can track this phone. The phone will not come out of its plastic cucoon, and with the data switched off, I hope the battery might last a day. I will carry another, old fashioned brick phone for calling the wife to tell her not to worry. I have to do this anyway, and she demands to know where I am going so I have to tell her. I believe she is more reliable than an app.
The GPS phone idea is my best practice however reality is likely to get in the way!
S


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[hidden email]



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Re: Cessation of CG 66 Scheme

Stephen Davies 3471
In reply to this post by Alastair Law 2624
Alastair,

Perhaps I misunderstand the technology, I always expected that with location switched on, the world and his wife would know where I was? You are suggesting that GPS tells the device where it is and that location is broadcast back to the cg via 3G or wifi.

I admit it makes more sense, but is it not possible for the CIA to interrogate an unwilling smartphone?

I must have a rethink.

S.
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Re: Cessation of CG 66 Scheme

Stephen Davies 3471
In reply to this post by Alastair Law 2624
And irrelevant as it may be in the light of your 2nd point, I contest the 1st.

When the GPS is switched on the phone is in a constant state of excitement, updating itself of every new position as it moves around. You are also likely outside with the screen at full brightness, squinting at the map.

I really don't understand these devices and I expect to be contradicted, perhaps the more modern phones, I have a 2nd hand but fairly shiny one, have developed an ability to depower gps when it is not required?

Stephen
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Re: Cessation of CG 66 Scheme

Graham Neil 2971

This thread seems to have drifted into a backwater about smart phones so I'll chip in with my tuppence worth. I have a fairly ordinary Sony Xperia phone which is now a couple of years old. When I am out cycling I use an app called Strava which uses the GPS on the phone to track my course during the day. I also have data turned on, using 4G to pick up emails and do the odd Google search, usually checking out pubs.

The battery lasts all day although on a heavy day its on its last legs after about ten hours.

For longer trips I have a small battery pack about the same size as the phone which will recharge it at least twice.

I don't see any need to have more than one phone, and would suggest that the best place to store it is in a waterproof case, round your neck.

Best

Graham


Sent from my Xperia by Sony smartphone



---- Stephen Davies 3471 [via DCA Forum] wrote ----

And irrelevant as it may be in the light of your 2nd point, I contest the 1st.

When the GPS is switched on the phone is in a constant state of excitement, updating itself of every new position as it moves around. You are also likely outside with the screen at full brightness, squinting at the map.

I really don't understand these devices and I expect to be contradicted, perhaps the more modern phones, I have a 2nd hand but fairly shiny one, have developed an ability to depower gps when it is not required?

Stephen


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Re: Cessation of CG 66 Scheme

Stephen Davies 3471
<quote author="Graham Neil 2971">
"GPS on the phone to track my course during the day. I also have data turned on, using 4G to pick up emails and do the odd Google search, usually checking out pubs.
The battery lasts all day although on a heavy day its on its last legs after about ten hours.
For longer trips I have a small battery pack about the same size as the phone which will recharge it at least twice.
I don't see any need to have more than one phone, and would suggest that the best place to store it is in a waterproof case, round your neck."



We don't see many capsize reports here, or in the journal, Hopefully we are all competent sailors, or perhaps we don't test ourselves enough, but I suspect we are also too proud. The last capsize report I read, reported a phone in a dry bag around the skipper's neck that failed. I will learn from that. I do carry a phone in a bag, tied around my neck, but it is not the shiny one that does all the tricks, it is the old one that resembles a small house brick. The shiny one will be given more protection, and if I can find away of letting the thing snooze quietly whilst keeping a track of where I am and reporting back to anyone concerned, but without tweeting or twirking or whatever it is that folk like to do, I will set it up so to do. Please don't lose patience with me.



Stephen
P.S. Yes I also carry a VHF, and no I haven't the foggiest how to use it.
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Re: Cessation of CG 66 Scheme

Stephen Davies 3471
Apologies for going on, but in case there are any real tech nerds out there,....

Is there a way that a smartphone can be remotely interogated for its position without running it's battery down? I would suggest if Graham is right and he can get 10 hours with heavy use, a sleepy phone could easily manage 2 days if I can resist interfering with it.

Thanks,

Stephen.
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Re: Cessation of CG 66 Scheme

Gerald Turner 2924
In reply to this post by Stephen Davies 3471
You say you have a VHF, And don't know how to use it?

Really you must learn, the Mayday protocol is widely available, and it allows you as an unregistered user in an emergency, the course is relatively simple to do, bit I believe the RYA uses it as cash cow to generate funds.
Once you passed the course, you then must register as a licenced radio operator with the MCA. I am not sure if you pay for that now, it's been a while since.
The risk of being caught using VHF without a licence is small,but nonetheless it's important that users have the understanding of correct protocol .

We don't seem to be any closer to a consensus on the Safetrx app, but it seems dinghy cruisers would not easily to be able to use it reliably.
Back to Radio contact with the CG or a responsible person ashore then?
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Re: Cessation of CG 66 Scheme

Stephen Davies 3471
I think I would manage the vhf in emergency, 156.8 be brief and expect to be asked to com on another channel.
I have worked with open radio as a mc courier, so I'm sure I'd manage, but I don't want to play with it or waste very scarce time doing a course.
It is just in the dry bag as a long shot that in emergency it will work. Like most things that don't get much use, chances are that when I need it in 5 or 10 years, it won't work, I can live with that, or not.

If I crew on bigger boats I may pick up experience using radios.

S.
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Re: Cessation of CG 66 Scheme

Stephen Davies 3471
In reply to this post by Gerald Turner 2924
Back to safetrx,

My understanding is the existing database will be transferred in, if you are using the same phone number, they should be able to track you with or without the app. The additional app features are dispensable, as long as we make alternative provision.

S
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Re: Cessation of CG 66 Scheme

Roger Barnes 936
In reply to this post by Stephen Davies 3471
An EPIRB is still the best way to be absolutely certain of calling out the emergency services if the chips are down.

From Roger Barnes by mobile

On 18 Feb 2019, at 18:13, Stephen Davies 3471 [via DCA Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

I think I would manage the vhf in emergency, 156.8 be brief and expect to be asked to com on another channel.
I have worked with open radio as a mc courier, so I'm sure I'd manage, but I don't want to play with it or waste very scarce time doing a course.
It is just in the dry bag as a long shot that in emergency it will work. Like most things that don't get much use, chances are that when I need it in 5 or 10 years, it won't work, I can live with that, or not.

If I crew on bigger boats I may pick up experience using radios.

S.


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Re: Cessation of CG 66 Scheme

Paul Hadley 2898
In reply to this post by Stephen Davies 3471
Later versions of Android do use less power with GPS on.
If an app is not using GPS or the screen is blank, the GPS chip can be put in a low power state to make the battery last longer.

Also there are Mid and Max levels of power saving. Max decreases display brightness by 10%, restricts background app data connection, slows down the cpu and turns the display into a black background with simple white lettering. (White letters on black uses much less battery as 90% of pixels are black or off)

Max estimates 137 hours of battery life, with no power saving 36 hours of battery life.

I'm using Android 9 on a 2018 Samsung J6 and I find the white on black much easier to read. Beneath the time it shows the estimated battery life in hours and minutes. That's a really useful feature.

Battery saving location settings can use wifi hotspots and mobile cell signals to estimate position instead of GPS.


I've tested this at home near a window facing the road:
Cell and wifi
15m error  25m circle of uncertainty

GPS
5m error  15m

In the rear garden with clear satellite view
Cell and wifi
25m error  25m.   (worse as it still thinks I'm by the road)

GPS
2m error  6m circle of uncertainty.

Google street view cars didn't just take pictures, all wifi IP addresses that were detected were saved with their precise location. So Google have a massive database of IP address locations, worldwide. Google know most broadband services use a fixed IP address, which is easily linked to a street address or lat/long position.

If you walk/drive/sail past a popular cafe with a strong wifi signal, Google maps find the cafe position, by searching the cafe IP address in the online database.

If you read the terms and conditions, Google can update the IP address location database using every phone that uses Google Location Services i.e. your phone!

The summary is the battery saving cell/wifi location setting could be useful for inshore sailing, with a phone signal.

Cheers
Paul

P.S. Some of the above only works on Android 9

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Re: Cessation of CG 66 Scheme

Roger Barnes 936
In reply to this post by Stephen Davies 3471
Mayday calls are on Ch 16. You will then stay on that channel while the call is being dealt with - right up to your rescue. You will not be transferred to another channel. This is really basic stuff, Stephen. You really should know this. Proper VHF training is not expensive, does not take very long, and could save your life. And incidentally, I would not rely on a mobile phone in an emergency at sea.



On 18 Feb 2019, at 18:13, Stephen Davies 3471 [via DCA Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

I think I would manage the vhf in emergency, 156.8 be brief and expect to be asked to com on another channel.
I have worked with open radio as a mc courier, so I'm sure I'd manage, but I don't want to play with it or waste very scarce time doing a course.
It is just in the dry bag as a long shot that in emergency it will work. Like most things that don't get much use, chances are that when I need it in 5 or 10 years, it won't work, I can live with that, or not.

If I crew on bigger boats I may pick up experience using radios.

S.


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Re: Cessation of CG 66 Scheme

Stephen Davies 3471
"Mayday calls are on Ch 16. You will then stay on that channel while the call is being dealt with - right up to your rescue. You will not be transferred to another channel."

Which on my tin pot radio is 156.8MHz, it doesn't have preprogramed channels.

It is enough for my tin pot boat.

The reason the license is required for radio use is to stop wallies from clogging up the airwaves with infantile drivel, the license is not, as I understand required for emergency use. I would be prepared to move to anther channel as my emergency might not be as big or as sexy as your emergency. This is common sense, but if the CG wishes to give me his undivided attention on the emergency channel, I will not complain.

I will not do a coarse unless I am obliged, the certificates I have for dinghy sailing are all a farce, it is practice, a little reading and watching of others that makes skill, not paperwork.

My risk assessment may be different from yours, and it may change but it is mine to make.

I will not and do not rely on a telephone, but any gadgets which modern life demands that I carry, that can be adapted to be of help on the water, should be put to best advantage, I think that is where this discussion began. I only mentioned the VHF in a futile attempt to head off this line of enquiry with good humour.

Are we still friends?

Stephen
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