Lune Pilot 14- Push/pull Rudder Conversion-advice+suggestions?

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Lune Pilot 14- Push/pull Rudder Conversion-advice+suggestions?

Robin
I have recently purchased a Lune Pilot 14. Its a cracking sail. However when the outboard is in the well the tiller is prevented from being pushed right over. A curved tiller helps a little but you still have to lift the tiller over the outboard which is tricky if your using a tiller extension.

I am considering converting to a push/pull set up using the current rudder. I was wondering if anyone has any experience of doing this and if there were any drawbacks?

Any advice appreciated.

Cheers Robin
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Re: Lune Pilot 14- Push/pull Rudder Conversion-advice+suggestions?

Osbert Lancaster 2756
Administrator
Hi Robin

I've used a push pull tiller on a yawl rigged sailing canoe. I found it very successful and easy to use.

On that boat the stresses were quite low, on a larger boat you'd need to ensure it was beefy enough. I'm actually thinking of switching to a pushpull on my Walkabout.

One benefit, especially on boats with a small cockpit, is you don't lose the space where a conventional tiller swings.

Not really answering your question, but this is relevant:
http://smallboatsmonthly.com/article/norwegian-tiller-keeper/

Lots more stuff here:
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=site:forum.woodenboat.com+Push+pull&gws_rd=cr&ei=eYbTWNfGC8ycgAaz9oXYBw
"Selkie", a Drake rowing boat by Clint Chase
"Scratch", a Walkabout dinghy by John Welsford
Mainly sailing and rowing on the Firth of Forth
forthsailoar.osbert.org
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Re: Lune Pilot 14- Push/pull Rudder Conversion-advice+suggestions?

Alan Stancombe 3253
In reply to this post by Robin
Hi Robin
I've got a Lune Pilot which I have fallen in love with. My engine is external to the transom so the problem does not arise. You might like to try the website  https://thelunepilot.com for advise.

I live in Leyburn, North Yorkshire. If you live anywhere near we could form a small fleet if you like.

With best wishes

Alan (Stancombe)
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Re: Lune Pilot 14- Push/pull Rudder Conversion-advice+suggestions?

John Lidstone 1503
In reply to this post by Robin
Hi Robin.
Have you considered a sideways curved tiller?
Cheers
John
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Re: Lune Pilot 14- Push/pull Rudder Conversion-advice+suggestions?

Robin
In reply to this post by Osbert Lancaster 2756
Cheers for that Osbert.....I also used to have that set up on a sailing canoe and really liked it. Just not sure where I could get advice about how strong it would need to be....trying to avoid an irreversible mistake....if that's ever possible!
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Re: Lune Pilot 14- Push/pull Rudder Conversion-advice+suggestions?

Robin
In reply to this post by Alan Stancombe 3253
Cheers Allan. I wouldn't mind a word with you....is it a 14 or 12? I tried mounting it on the transom but it was way out of the water.  I'm up in the north east of Scotland which is a fair old hike from Yorkshire.
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Re: Lune Pilot 14- Push/pull Rudder Conversion-advice+suggestions?

Robin
In reply to this post by John Lidstone 1503
Cheers John....have you got any photos of what that might look like? I googled it for images but got some pretty bizarre stuff!
Cheers Robin
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Re: Lune Pilot 14- Push/pull Rudder Conversion-advice+suggestions?

Roger Barnes 936
I have sailed a Ness Yole with a push-pull rudder. This was a real one, some 22 foot long, not the Oughtred version. It works well on a long slim vessel, but I am not sure about it on a more conventional boat. Biggest issue is that the push pull works in opposite dire action on each tack (in that on one tack you push to luff, on the other you push to bear off).

From Roger Barnes by mobile

On 27 Mar 2017, at 23:17, Robin [via DCA Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

Cheers John....have you got any photos of what that might look like? I googled it for images but got some pretty bizarre stuff!
Cheers Robin


If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the discussion below:
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Roger Barnes
President
Dinghy Cruising Association

president@dinghycruising.org.uk
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Re: Lune Pilot 14- Push/pull Rudder Conversion-advice+suggestions?

Roger Barnes 936
In reply to this post by Robin
Direction. (Dire action?)

From Roger Barnes by mobile

On 28 Mar 2017, at 08:54, Roger Barnes <[hidden email]> wrote:

I have sailed a Ness Yole with a push-pull rudder. This was a real one, some 22 foot long, not the Oughtred version. It works well on a long slim vessel, but I am not sure about it on a more conventional boat. Biggest issue is that the push pull works in opposite dire action on each tack (in that on one tack you push to luff, on the other you push to bear off).

From Roger Barnes by mobile

On 27 Mar 2017, at 23:17, Robin [via DCA Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

Cheers John....have you got any photos of what that might look like? I googled it for images but got some pretty bizarre stuff!
Cheers Robin


If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the discussion below:
http://forum.dinghycruising.org.uk/Lune-Pilot-14-Push-pull-Rudder-Conversion-advice-suggestions-tp770p780.html
To start a new topic under Dinghies for Cruising: choosing, acquiring & using, email [hidden email]
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Roger Barnes
President
Dinghy Cruising Association

president@dinghycruising.org.uk
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Re: Lune Pilot 14- Push/pull Rudder Conversion-advice+suggestions?

Alan Stancombe 3253
In reply to this post by Robin
Hi Robin
Mine is a 12ft6in but 14 when you add the bowsprit. My engine is on one of these trapezoidal supports and just swings up and down. It never conflicts with the rudder or tiller. In my opinion it looks nicer than the ones with a hole cut in the boat. Of course my engine is a long shaft which may have been the problem with yours.
Cheers
Alan
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Re: Lune Pilot 14- Push/pull Rudder Conversion-advice+suggestions?

John Lidstone 1503
In reply to this post by Robin

Hi Robin,


I've sketched something for you but was unable to upload it to the forum. I'll add it via this email reply but if that doesn't work, could you send me your email address and I'll send it direct to you.


Regards


John




From: Robin [via DCA Forum] <ml-node+[hidden email]>
Sent: 27 March 2017 22:17
To: John Lidstone 1503
Subject: Re: Lune Pilot 14- Push/pull Rudder Conversion-advice+suggestions?
 
Cheers John....have you got any photos of what that might look like? I googled it for images but got some pretty bizarre stuff!
Cheers Robin


If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the discussion below:
http://forum.dinghycruising.org.uk/Lune-Pilot-14-Push-pull-Rudder-Conversion-advice-suggestions-tp770p780.html
To start a new topic under Dinghies for Cruising: choosing, acquiring & using, email ml-node+[hidden email]
To unsubscribe from DCA Forum, click here.
NAML

Sideways Curved Tiller.JPG (3M) Download Attachment
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Re: Lune Pilot 14- Push/pull Rudder Conversion-advice+suggestions?

John Lidstone 1503
In reply to this post by Robin
Sideways Curved Tiller Robin, I think the tiller may need to be 2 inch square at the root, tapering to what ever is comfortable. It must obviously be laminated over a former. I suggest bolting it through your rudder stock. Things like this are often done on small yawls.
Regards
John
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Re: Lune Pilot 14- Push/pull Rudder Conversion-advice+suggestions?

John Button 3320
I've seen something similar, but much simpler to make, on a fishing boat with mizzen mast.  The tiller was just a bent piece of steel pipe.  A wooden one could be made from layers of ply stuck on top of each other, rather than vertical laminations.

JohnB
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Re: Lune Pilot 14- Push/pull Rudder Conversion-advice+suggestions?

Robin
In reply to this post by Alan Stancombe 3253
Hi Alan
Ours must be quite different boats. Mine is def 14ft prior to the bow spirit going on. I looked at the articulated brackets but the angle of the stern is significant and Couldn't see how it was going to work.

My boat has no ballast in it but I've been told it should have 50 kilos in it....I was a bit worried about just placing it in the keel incase of capsize....is your Ballast loose?.....I've been wondering about glassing it in?

Robin


Sent from my iPhone

On 28 Mar 2017, at 10:52, Alan Stancombe 3253 [via DCA Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Robin
Mine is a 12ft6in but 14 when you add the bowsprit. My engine is on one of these trapezoidal supports and just swings up and down. It never conflicts with the rudder or tiller. In my opinion it looks nicer than the ones with a hole cut in the boat. Of course my engine is a long shaft which may have been the problem with yours.
Cheers
Alan


If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the discussion below:
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Re: Lune Pilot 14- Push/pull Rudder Conversion-advice+suggestions?

Alan Stancombe 3253
Hi Robin
I think there is some weight built into the keel but I have never added sandbags or anything like that. I know some people do. I think it's heavy enough to shift as it is. You can always use human ballast if you are a bit concerned!
I never go out in more than a 4 so I think living with in your own capabilities is probably the order of the day. Ask them at Glenredding Sailing Centre. They should know about these things.
Alan
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Re: Lune Pilot 14- Push/pull Rudder Conversion-advice+suggestions?

Peter Brooks 3064
In reply to this post by John Button 3320
For an example of 'bent steel pipe' look at a National 18. Google then Images will serve if you don't have an actual boat handy.
Regards
Peter.
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Re: Lune Pilot 14- Push/pull Rudder Conversion-advice+suggestions?

Robin
Cheers Peter much appreciated.  I would like to use wood but don't have experience of using a former etc.

Robin

Sent from my iPhone

On 31 Mar 2017, at 09:39, Peter Brooks 3064 [via DCA Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

For an example of 'bent steel pipe' look at a National 18. Google then Images will serve if you don't have an actual boat handy.
Regards
Peter.


If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the discussion below:
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Re: Lune Pilot 14- Push/pull Rudder Conversion-advice+suggestions?

Robin
Many thanks for all the suggestions.

I was speaking to the good people at Fyne Boats about the sideways curved tiller and they suggested looking at a pull/ pull set up....have done a bit of reading about the system and it would certainly solve the problem as it would bring the pivot point of the tiller forward.....and you basically have two wires / line going back to the rudder....was pretty interesting.  Anyone have any experience of these systems?

Had a cracking sail out of Findhorn last weekend on the Moray Coast don't know if anybody goes up that neck of the woods but its beautiful sailing.

Cheers
Robin
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RE: Lune Pilot 14- Push/pull Rudder Conversion-advice+suggestions?

John Lidstone 1503

Hi Robin,

Pivots and wires sound like more invasive mods to your boat, more parts, more complex and therefore less reliable than a curved tiller. But you would expect me to say that!

Cheers

John

 

Sent from my Windows 10 phone

 

From: [hidden email]
Sent: 26 April 2017 10:03
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Lune Pilot 14- Push/pull Rudder Conversion-advice+suggestions?

 

Many thanks for all the suggestions.

I was speaking to the good people at Fyne Boats about the sideways curved tiller and they suggested looking at a pull/ pull set up....have done a bit of reading about the system and it would certainly solve the problem as it would bring the pivot point of the tiller forward.....and you basically have two wires / line going back to the rudder....was pretty interesting.  Anyone have any experience of these systems?

Had a cracking sail out of Findhorn last weekend on the Moray Coast don't know if anybody goes up that neck of the woods but its beautiful sailing.

Cheers
Robin


If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the discussion below:
http://forum.dinghycruising.org.uk/Lune-Pilot-14-Push-pull-Rudder-Conversion-advice-suggestions-tp770p832.html
To start a new topic under Dinghies for Cruising: choosing, acquiring & using, email ml+[hidden email]
To unsubscribe from DCA Forum, click here.
NAML
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Re: Lune Pilot 14- Push/pull Rudder Conversion-advice+suggestions?

Alastair Law 2624
On 26 Apr 2017 at 9:21, John Lidstone 1503 [via DCA Forum] wrote:

>
> Hi Robin,
> Pivots and wires sound like more invasive mods to your boat, more
> parts, more complex and therefore less reliable than a curved tiller.
> But you would expect me to say that! Cheers John
>

On the other hand I witnessed a curved tiller with a severe
structural discontinuity (broken) just last weekend.

--
Sail when you can, row when you must, motor only
when you have to be at work in the morning.

Alastair Law
Yeovil, England.
<http://www.little.jim.freeuk.com>


--
Sail when you can, row when you must, motor only
when you have to be at work in the morning.

Alastair Law
Yeovil, England.
<http://www.little.jim.freeuk.com>
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