Northumbrian Coble sail plan

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Northumbrian Coble sail plan

Dave Foote 3426
I am at the stage of designing the rig for the Selway Fisher Northumbrian coble (15') that lies almost complete outside our house in the cold.  I have decided not to use any of the suggested rigs (in the plans) and instead am opting for the simplest possible balanced lug rig.  By a little calculation and studying the plans I have arrived at a proposed rig of 10.0 sq m and a COE lead over CLR of about 11%.

Questions:
- does anyone have experience that would suggest changing the lead of 11%?  and if so, to more or less?
- does 10 sq m sound reasonable for sail area, given that I am aiming for gentle sailing and not in a hurry?
- would there be any advantage in having more than 2 rows of reef points?

Any experience and wisdom from the group would be much appreciated, thanks!
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Re: Northumbrian Coble sail plan

David Bewick 3135
I am a fan of the balanced lug rig.  The lead sounds about right to me and I think 10 sq m is a decent size for your boat but you will use the reefs.  When I had a similar sail made up, the sailmaker queried the third row of reefing points.  In the end, I decided to go for it, but hope I never needed to use them!

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Re: Northumbrian Coble sail plan

Roger Barnes 936
For reference my 15ft long Ilur has a sail of 12 sqm. Even with a 10 sqm sail I’d still go for 3 rows of reef points. I certainly use mine! The balanced lug is not really a seagoing rig, but people who sail mostly on shelter waters like it, as they have a fetish about reducing sail twist. For open sea work I would always pick a boomess lug rig, as did the original cobles. There was a reason for that. Generations of NE sailers were not wrong...


On 28 Jan 2017, at 10:27, David Bewick 3135 [via DCA Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

I am a fan of the balanced lug rig.  The lead sounds about right to me and I think 10 sq m is a decent size for your boat but you will use the reefs.  When I had a similar sail made up, the sailmaker queried the third row of reefing points.  In the end, I decided to go for it, but hope I never needed to use them!




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Re: Northumbrian Coble sail plan

Tom Hart 2280
Roger, what was the reason for choosing the boomless lug rig, please?
Tom. Wayfarer and Michalak Twixt. Solent.
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Re: Northumbrian Coble sail plan

David Bewick 3135
In reply to this post by Roger Barnes 936
There are certainly pros and cons associated with the use of a boom with a lug sail but I don't think it is right to say the balanced lug is "not really a seagoing rig".  In a working boat, the ability to brail the mainsail up with a single line might be a great advantage but not many of us sail working boats, do we?  I have both a boomed and an un-boomed sail that I can use on my Aber.  I like them both but, for ease of use whilst actually sailing, the boomed sail wins out, every time.  Even some advocates of the un-boomed lug sail find they need to pole out the clew when they are going downwind.
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Re: Northumbrian Coble sail plan

Roger Barnes 936
Traditionally balanced lugs were only used on inland waters.

On 29 Jan 2017, at 12:20, David Bewick 3135 [via DCA Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

There are certainly pros and cons associated with the use of a boom with a lug sail but I don't think it is right to say the balanced lug is "not really a seagoing rig".  In a working boat, the ability to brail the mainsail up with a single line might be a great advantage but not many of us sail working boats, do we?  I have both a boomed and an un-boomed sail that I can use on my Aber.  I like them both but, for ease of use whilst actually sailing, the boomed sail wins out, every time.  Even some advocates of the un-boomed lug sail find they need to pole out the clew when they are going downwind.


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Re: Northumbrian Coble sail plan

Roger Barnes 936
In reply to this post by David Bewick 3135

On 29 Jan 2017, at 19:34, Roger Barnes <[hidden email]> wrote:

Traditionally balanced lugs were only used on inland waters.

On 29 Jan 2017, at 12:20, David Bewick 3135 [via DCA Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

There are certainly pros and cons associated with the use of a boom with a lug sail but I don't think it is right to say the balanced lug is "not really a seagoing rig".  In a working boat, the ability to brail the mainsail up with a single line might be a great advantage but not many of us sail working boats, do we?  I have both a boomed and an un-boomed sail that I can use on my Aber.  I like them both but, for ease of use whilst actually sailing, the boomed sail wins out, every time.  Even some advocates of the un-boomed lug sail find they need to pole out the clew when they are going downwind.


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Re: Northumbrian Coble sail plan

Dave Foote 3426
Thanks to all for the comments
We did consider the dipping lug (boomless of course) in an effort to be "true" to the local coble rigs.  But then thought better of it!  We don't plan to be working from the boat as such, other than a little opportunistic mackerel fishing. But we do expect to be tacking more than twice a day so all that hauling feels like hard work in the name of "authenticity".  Anything for an easy life!

I think that overall we're aiming for a respectful nod to the local coble sailors rather than trying to replicate their boats.  Better get back to the painting or there will not be a boat to sail at all....!
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Re: Northumbrian Coble sail plan

Roger Barnes 936
The advantage of boomless lugs is that they lift the boat - rather than press it down - particularly the dipping lug. When close tacking the old coble sailors would leave the sail on the same side, not dip it.

I have sailed large cornish and breton dipping luggers, and the method of passing the sail around the front of the mast still half-hoisted is pretty quick.

 


On 30 Jan 2017, at 13:38, Dave Foote 3426 [via DCA Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

Thanks to all for the comments
We did consider the dipping lug (boomless of course) in an effort to be "true" to the local coble rigs.  But then thought better of it!  We don't plan to be working from the boat as such, other than a little opportunistic mackerel fishing. But we do expect to be tacking more than twice a day so all that hauling feels like hard work in the name of "authenticity".  Anything for an easy life!

I think that overall we're aiming for a respectful nod to the local coble sailors rather than trying to replicate their boats.  Better get back to the painting or there will not be a boat to sail at all....!


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Roger Barnes
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Re: Northumbrian Coble sail plan

David Platten 2616
Take a look at Boscarhyn's channel on YouTube, before you dismiss the boomless dipping lug finally.
Regards, David
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Re: Northumbrian Coble sail plan

Tom Hart 2280
In reply to this post by Roger Barnes 936
Has the lift of a boomless rig and the pressing down of a boomed rig, been quantified anywhere? I seem to remember a reference to the former effect with the Shetland boats. Certainly, when loaded with fish and with the wind behind or on the beam, the halliard  of a sixearn (six oars) was actively managed to lower and raise the sail to avoid being overpowered (The Sail Fishermen of Shetland, A. Halcrow). That would, presumably, only be feasible with a boomless sail. The desirability of the lift effect is topical, with the example of the foiled Vendée Globe boats.
Tom. Wayfarer and Michalak Twixt. Solent.
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Re: Northumbrian Coble sail plan

John Button 3320
In reply to this post by Dave Foote 3426
1869 - a yachtsman describes the coble as, 'boat and harbour in one and each the very worst and most dangerous order.'

I grew up on the NE coast where the coble was the standard inshore boat; by the 1950s there were none with sails; most had engines, often marinised Austin 7 motors,  -a few small ones were rowed.   Fishermen got rid of sails as soon as they could afford a motor.  And I for one don't blame them.

So I looked at the selway fisher site.

All I can say is that the SF cobles are attractive boats that pay lip service to the trad. NE cobles and that's where the resemblance ends.  No coble had a centreboard.  They had shallow bilge keels on the aft of the run to assist in beaching stern on, and enormously deep rudders that were unshipped for beaching, although these were reduced in depth on most motorised versions.  The rudder and deep forefoot provided most of what lateral resistance there was.  Rig was dipping lug with a jib+bowsprit for casional use.

You may care to look at http://www.thecobleinart.com/cobleorigins.htm
and 'Inshore craft of Britain in the days of sail and oar' Vol 1 Edgar J March, 1970, David and Charles

And when you paint her, do paint the strake in different colours.

Good sailing
JohnB
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Re: Northumbrian Coble sail plan

Roger Barnes 936
All sailing fishermen turned to engines as soon as they could afford them. This was not restricted to coble sailors. But the sailing coble was considered to be the most seaworthy open boat operating around the British coast. It was also considered to need experienced handling, however.


On 5 Feb 2017, at 17:30, John Button 3320 [via DCA Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

1869 - a yachtsman describes the coble as, 'boat and harbour in one and each the very worst and most dangerous order.'

I grew up on the NE coast where the coble was the standard inshore boat; by the 1950s there were none with sails; most had engines, often marinised Austin 7 motors,  -a few small ones were rowed.   Fishermen got rid of sails as soon as they could afford a motor.  And I for one don't blame them.

So I looked at the selway fisher site.

All I can say is that the SF cobles are attractive boats that pay lip service to the trad. NE cobles and that's where the resemblance ends.  No coble had a centreboard.  They had shallow bilge keels on the aft of the run to assist in beaching stern on, and enormously deep rudders that were unshipped for beaching, although these were reduced in depth on most motorised versions.  The rudder and deep forefoot provided most of what lateral resistance there was.  Rig was dipping lug with a jib+bowsprit for casional use.

You may care to look at http://www.thecobleinart.com/cobleorigins.htm
and 'Inshore craft of Britain in the days of sail and oar' Vol 1 Edgar J March, 1970, David and Charles

And when you paint her, do paint the strake in different colours.

Good sailing
JohnB


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Re: Northumbrian Coble sail plan

Dave Foote 3426
In reply to this post by John Button 3320
Thanks John

It was the purchase of the Edgar J March books many years ago that first showed me the beauty of the coble.  (London raised, I had never visited any part of the NE coast)

The romantic in me would like to build the "real thing" someday, but having never tackled a boat before it seemed sensible to start with epoxy and marine ply ..... (and that's hard enough!).  I can live with the fact that the selway fisher interpretation is "coble - ish" at best, and we have both oars and an engine already.  Sail is next.

thecobleinart is interesting, thanks for the link

and yes, we're planning blue and white - hope that's OK!
Dave
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